OBJECTOR: Agreed. CATHOLIC: The Catholic Church believes that, in addition to the Bible, we need oral Tradition to know what the Bible teaches and to know the doctrines of the Christian faith that are not in the Bible, such as the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Catholics, for instance, see in the Bible the basis for the practice and efficacy of the sacraments, yet other Christian believers do not. Some regular users of the Forums welcomed user fees. Mark P. Shea is a popular Catholic writer and speaker. Explore. On Thursday December 31 at 5pm PT, Catholic Answers will close the Catholic Answers Forums (CAF). Protestant Bibles, however, have seven fewer books in their Old Testament. … Jesus is our Brother, by default that makes Mary our Mother and what does God tell us about our … But now that Scripture is complete, that “pattern of sound words” is found in the New Testament and we no longer need oral Tradition. It has resulted in the unification of protestants in their stance that all things Catholic … The Bible Alone? He is telling them to hold and teach the truths that they heard from Paul’s mouth—things that were not yet contained in Scripture, but were passed down orally. See this page in: French, Portuguese, Spanish. Sola fide, the idea that … Hello all, I have been thinking a lot lately about switching to using the Douay-Rheims Bible alone. Lots of great Catholic links too. The inspired apostle says in essence to hold to the oral Tradition of the gospel that we have received. CATHOLIC: Your logic is sound, but the word translated in verse 17 as “complete” is artios, a word that can also be translated as “prepared.” Now, you will concede that there is a difference between being prepared and being complete. Legitimate authority to which books of the new testament apocrypha as he formerly hosted the catholic bible comes from communion with a reward. This is exactly the same thing that Paul urges in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, “So, then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”. But if we read his words as implying that Scripture is sufficient with no need of Tradition, then he would be saying that the Old Testament is sufficient. My biblical concordance does not list any occurrences of the word. ) 15:3). Southern belles are great! So when Paul speaks of Scripture in this verse, he is certainly referring to the Old Testament and not the entire Bible as we now have it. Where we differ is the method of how we receive that grace. Now with Google Translator for non-English speakers. “All scripture is given by by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THOROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 The Bible doesn’t say he was—but it doesn’t say he wasn’t. Faith Alone. A message from the President of Catholic Answers, Dear Members and Patrons of the Catholic Answers Forums, On Thursday December 31 at 5pm PT, Catholic Answers will close the Catholic Answers Forums (CAF). Let's read James 2:24: “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Protestants say NO! This last kind—Tradition as you call it—is an unwarranted addition to the simplicity of the gospel as found in the Bible. Paul is telling Timothy and Titus the same truth. It. The inspired apostle says in essence to hold to the oral Tradition of the gospel that we have received. 1. Catholic Bible 101 - The Five "Solas" - Catholicbible101 is the website that explains Catholic teachings in plain, easy to understand English. Semper_Fi_1 March 8, 2012, 11:26pm #1. This was then reduced to three hours before reception and finally shortened to one hour. "The Bible Alone?" The vast majority wished to make use of the Forums for free. But before … Even though Old Testament Scripture predicted the coming of Christ, the fullness of the gospel came to Paul by revelation, as Paul says explicitly in Galatians 1:12: “For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”, So the “sound words” that Timothy and Titus are to hold to is the verbal transmission of the gospel that Paul had taught them. If it was, then the equation between these “sound words” and the Bible seems justified. —which every Catholic is required to believe because it is part of the deposit of faith. OBJECTOR: I have no problem with the verses you cite because they were very applicable in a time when the New Testament was not yet completed. Questions for Catholics and Orthodox: If the Roman Catholic church gave the world the Bible, being infallible, then why did Rome reject or question the inspiration of James and Hebrews, then later … He is the author of numerous … Such a step is not too far of a stretch. This is exactly what the Catholic Church believes we Christians should do. You will agree, I am sure, that the writings we call the New Testament were not yet collected together as Scripture when Paul wrote his second letter to Timothy. That distinction results in an ironic turning of the tables. Let's read James 2:24: “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Protestants say NO! OBJECTOR: You need to attend to the context more carefully. : Certainly Scripture is not sufficient for every purpose such as biology or astronomy, but it is sufficient for faith and morals. The most important is to realize that the Catholic Church does not … If Paul views the Old Testament as Scripture sufficient for the purpose he enumerates in verse 16, we can certainly say that the apostle would agree with applying these same words to the New Testament. : Agreed. For you to maintain your position that Scripture is sufficient, you are forced to say that part of Paul’s exhortation in Scripture no longer applies. Catholic Bible 101 - The Bible Alone? ), I would take Paul’s meaning to be that the Scriptures are useful and profitable for equipping the man of God for God’s work, not that they were intended to be sufficient for every purpose. Now from some of the views expressed by these Christian men and women of good will, I generally see ONE ISSUE HERE. If it was, then the equation between these “sound words” and the Bible seems justified. : Your distinction between the content of the gospel and the process by which it came down to us is curious. Being OF God - i.e., God’s very WORD, Sacred/Holy Scriptures nonetheless form a Foundational part of what the Church IS… Nevertheless, the position of the Church is that Scripture is materially sufficient, but not formally sufficient, for knowledge of the revelation of God. If you would like to continue supporting the work of Catholic Answers, you can donate here. The normal word for “sufficient” in Greek that Paul uses elsewhere is hikanos. The debate over “Bible Alone” doctrines all eventually boil down to debate over who has the authority to decide, both what is called Scripture and how Scripture should be interpreted. On the one hand, there are many traditions in the church that are not binding on its members, such as praying the rosary. The bible verses in question are when Paul says that we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law (Gal 2:16), and when James says that faith apart from works is dead (James 2:26). I know … So how can Paul be referring them to Tradition? As the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation draws near, expect lots of people to be talking about the central pillar of the Reformation called sola fide, or justification by faith alone… CATHOLIC: Ask yourself what the content of these “sound words” or “sound teaching” was. Sola scriptura (by scripture alone in English) is a theological doctrine held by some Protestant Christian denominations that the Christian scriptures are the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice.. The word they received was Paul’s teaching about Jesus—that same teaching which he sums up in his first letter to the Corinthians, “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures” (1 Cor. Apostolic. I am still Catholic, but I just don't have what it takes to date Catholics in my region. The time of the fast has changed, but it is binding for Catholic s to follow the rule as long as it is in force. In these pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus), Paul actually appeals to the notion of Tradition as a necessary and valuable supplement to the Old Testament, which he referred to in 2 Timothy 3:16–17. It is a composite of holy Scripture that all … The bible is a great jewel, but it is NOT the church. Isn’t it an arbitrary distinction to say that one thing (content) applies while the other (process) does not? If we limit ourselves to quoting selected verses, we will probably miss the deeper meaning of Paul’s words. to search the largest database of Catholic answers. Some regular users of the Forums welcomed user fees. So, I was curious, who all here uses just the DR as their main Bible for study and prayer? distinction to say that one thing (content) applies while the other (process) does not? We believe that the oral traditions passed down through the history of the Church are necessary, but it is important to distinguish between two uses of the word tradition. The bible alone position was started after the protestant reformation. Scripture is necessarybecause it is the written revelation of God himself. The protestants believe that God just gives them grace whenever He wills it, sacraments or not. Mark P. Shea. The Catholic Church regularly dispenses sanctifying grace through the sacraments. It used to be all night from midnight to the time when one received Communion. We certainly would not want to argue a positive case from silence, but neither should those who assume the thief was not baptized (the Bible doesn’t report the apostles’ baptisms either!). 1 decade ago. When we add to the inconclusive value of the forums, the significant cost in financial resources and personnel time to host, operate, and to what degree we can, govern them, Catholic Answers can no longer justify the effort. It has been going on ever since the Protestant Reformation in 1517, five hundred years ago. He calls them “the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me” (2 Tim. We believe that the oral traditions passed down through the history of the Church are necessary, but it is important to distinguish between two uses of the word, : It’s doctrinal or dogmatic Tradition—tradition with a big. Thanks again. If you can agree to focus on this doctrinal Tradition for a moment, we can discuss its grounding in Scripture and history. CATHOLIC: Yes, that’s probably the scope of his reference. Even though Old Testament Scripture predicted the coming of Christ, the fullness of the gospel came to Paul by revelation, as Paul says explicitly in Galatians 1:12: “For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”, So the “sound words” that Timothy and Titus are to hold to is the, transmission of the gospel that Paul had taught them. You are justified by Faith Alone. A good Catholic could choose not to use these traditions his whole life and still be a good Catholic (although one could not be a good Catholic without praying in some form). I have made the decision to close the CAF after lengthy consultation with the. I understand that the word "good" is interpreted subjectively. po18guy. 1:13). But now that Scripture is complete, that “pattern of sound words” is found in the New Testament and we no longer need oral Tradition. : Sure. A careful biblical interpreter must pay attention to context. 3. Paul exhorts them to hold on to his verbal teachings. The bible verses in question are when Paul says that we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by … Seeing this requires a careful reading of the pastoral epistles. ... And yet, we typically don’t do this—we simply assume that it’s up for us to decide, using the Bible alone … and N.T. And do these Bible alone Christians follow a certain leader or pastor or preacher? Shop for Evangelization Prayer and Holy Cards at CatholicPrayerCards.org. OBJECTOR: Well, I don’t see Paul pointing Timothy and Titus to any verbal transmission. There are certain Christians out there who believe in the Bible alone. It includes things like the Immaculate Conception of Mary and the infallibility of the pope. : A slow, attentive reading of the pastoral epistles reveals that Paul is exhorting Timothy and Titus to hold fast to that which they received verbally from Paul. But look more closely at what Paul is saying. Reprinted with permission from Mark Shea. Forum Elder. If Paul views the Old Testament as Scripture sufficient for the purpose he enumerates in verse 16, we can certainly say that the apostle would agree with applying these same words to the New Testament. Let me explain why the Catholic Church does not agree. The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) has become the most widely used Roman Catholic Bible outside of the United States. Being OF God - i.e., God’s very WORD, Sacred/Holy Scriptures nonetheless form a Foundational part of what the Church IS… Nevertheless, the position of the Church is that Scripture is … 1:13; 4:3; Titus 1:9, 13; 2:1, 2). There are other traditions that are temporary and changing even though they are binding as long as they are in force. Note: In an effort to accurately represent the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, references are cited from an authoritative source, the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, imprimatur from eminent Cardinal … Such a step is not too far of a stretch. Even though I think the first kind of tradition is also detrimental to a Christian’s faith. : Your logic is sound, but the word translated in verse 17 as “complete” is, , a word that can also be translated as “prepared.” Now, you will concede that there is a difference between being prepared and being complete. Religion: One. Doesnt Timothy 3:16-17, especially the part that I have bolded show that scripture alone is not only “profitable” but “sufficient”. Scripture certainly has the power to do all the things that this verse says. 2 Thess. : No, we shouldn’t add anything to God’s revelation. : So would you say that Paul’s exhortation to hold to his verbal teaching no longer applies? More information... People also love these ideas. But the word that Paul uses here is profitable, not sufficient. There are some Christians out there who are “Bible alone” Christians. It includes things like the Immaculate Conception of Mary and the infallibility of the pope. In light of the next word used in verse 17 (equipped), I would take Paul’s meaning to be that the Scriptures are useful and profitable for equipping the man of God for God’s work, not that they were intended to be sufficient for every purpose. But a close examination of the context suggests that it is not the Bible that Paul is referring to. When we add to the inconclusive value of the forums, the significant cost in financial resources and personnel time to host, operate, and to what degree we can, govern them, Catholic Answers can no longer justify the effort. I tried to move to a Catholic region (Miami) but the recession is too brutal for a move. Catholic s, on the other hand, take Paul’s exhortation in Scripture with the utmost seriousness and accept that both the content of the gospel and the process by which it came still apply today. If there are other sources of equal weight and magnitude as the Bible, then Christian doctrine, stemming only from Bible exegesis, must be open to correction from outside the Bible. Today, “Bible alone” is usually meant that the Bible, all 66 books (in the non-Catholic Bibles), is the be-all, end-all, rule of faith for all Christian doctrine and practice. Catholic s, on the other hand, take Paul’s exhortation in Scripture with the utmost seriousness and accept that both the content of the gospel and the process by which it came still apply today. Here is mine. But again, understand that Tradition (with a big T) is not an addition to the pure word of God. Protestants believe that the Bible is the only authority on Christian faith, but it was the Catholic Church who put all the books in the Bible together from their own authority as the original Church of Christ. Evangelization Holy Card. In fact, in verse 15 he refers to the “sacred writings” with which Timothy has been acquainted from childhood. There isn’t even the slightest suggestion that we should add something to Scripture. The Bible does not say “Do not use tradition” or “Scripture alone is sufficient.” But the Bible does not say “The Trinity is three persons in one God” either, yet it is a fundamental doctrine of … CATHOLIC: So would you say that Paul’s exhortation to hold to his verbal teaching no longer applies? One of Martin Luther’s invented theories from the 16 th century was that “The Bible Alone” is all that is necessary to understand God’s Holy Word – No Pope, no Magesterium, no man, no … : Sure. It has resulted in the unification of protestants in their stance that all things Catholic are evil, including the Pope, good works, statues, Mary, authority, etc. So when Paul speaks of Scripture in this verse, he is certainly referring to the Old Testament and not the entire Bible as we now have it. In light of the next word used in verse 17 (. Inevitably, we must point to specific verses, but they must be understood in the context of the whole. The New Testament Canon that Christians of all denominations enjoy was first offered by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria in 367AD. Thus, today, all we need is Scripture. A careful biblical interpreter must pay attention to context. CATHOLIC: No, we shouldn’t add anything to God’s revelation. : Well, I don’t see Paul pointing Timothy and Titus to any verbal transmission. Now that the content of the verbal transmission is embodied in Scripture, we no longer need the verbal teaching that took place in the time before the formation of the New Testament. CATHOLIC: Sure. If you would like to continue supporting the work of Catholic Answers, you can. The Bible Alone? But that does not mean that it is sufficient for every purpose. In fact, that is what the Catholic Church would say. Catholic Answers executive committee and board of trustees. But there is an even more telling reason why we should not pit Scripture against Tradition by appealing to this passage in Timothy. Romans 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. 3 0. Well, we already saw that this is not the case. Because Catholic Answers has limited resources, we are always evaluating our programs to determine if they provide a good return on investment. God’s word handed down in verbal form from generation to generation. CATHOLIC: Look at 1 Timothy 1:10–11 again. For example, there was a change in the requirements for fasting before receiving Holy Communion. Scripture certainly has the power to do all the things that this verse says. Take 2 Timothy 3:16–17, for example: “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”. Take Revelation 22:18, for example: “I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.” And 2 Timothy 3:16–17, which I quoted above, shows that it is Scripture that builds up the man of God, not human traditions, whether with a big T or and a little t. CATHOLIC: I don’t think that passage says exactly what you want it to say. 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